# Feedback request: Slashing and automated staking for bakers in the Oxford 2 proposal
**URL:** https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836
**Category:** Research and Development
**Created:** [November 8, 2023, 8:48am UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836 "2023-11-08T08:48:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@NomadicLabs](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/NomadicLabs)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2023, 8:48am UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/1 "2023-11-08T08:48:32Z")
A revised Oxford 2 protocol proposal is under preparation and contains the features announced earlier in
[https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/towards-a-revised-oxford-proposal](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/towards-a-revised-oxford-proposal)
Note that this proposal would not enable the activation of [Adaptive Issuance](https://research-development.nomadic-labs.com/adaptive-issuance.html#adaptive-issuance), nor extend the proposed [Staking mechanism](https://research-development.nomadic-labs.com/adaptive-issuance.html#new-staking-mechanism) to delegators – that is, as it is the case with the Nairobi protocol active on Mainnet, only bakers can put funds as stake.
The business logic inherited from the original Oxford proposal implementing these features will be set behind a disabled feature flag.
Our focus has been to work on improving the UX of the new Staking mechanism for bakers, fixing [the issues reported](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/on-the-issues-reported-in-adaptive-issuances-implementation/5728) with slashing in the original Oxford proposal, and improving balance updates so that they report more meaningful information to upstream infrastructure (e.g. block explorers or wallets).
At this point, the team would like to share the following documents with the community in order to gather feedback on the design (of a subset of the) proposed changes.
- [Draft: Slashing and you: a primer](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GLe8B0s7A88Av2rE5Ezumf8rJ7I7f-hNzJysQsaLjgE/edit?usp=sharing) – describes the changes in slashing, and their effects on the Staking mechanism.
- [Draft: O² Staking](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uYjcWR7tOBB7EaPb3JHDsedqiZ4SOKOiuDMVMqX6Bg0/edit?usp=sharing) – describes our strategy to introduce the new Staking mechanism for bakers in the code base while preserving as much of Nairobi behavior as possible.
We kindly ask you to use this thread to provide feedback, ask questions, and raise concerns.
Note that these documents describe work in progress and are updated as the implementation evolves and as a result of this feedback.
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### Author:  [@Primate411](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Primate411)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/2 "2023-11-08T18:11:10Z")
While O2 Adaptive Issuance (AI) is behind a disabled flag, will bakers be able to cast votes for AI and establish an EMA?
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### Author:  [@Boulange](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Boulange)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/3 "2023-11-08T19:04:29Z")
- Slashing
Just a question: why 7% and not any other value, for double baking?
- Staking
I’m not sure I understood properly, so please correct me if I’m wrong (I’m taking risks here by putting my credibility at stake 😃): with O², the _staked-frozen_ amount directly depends on the baking power, thus on the amount delegated by others. But in case of private baking (no delegators) or just to ensure a minimal baking power when underdelegated, it will be possible to delegate to self (_autostaking_)?
For example, if my baker has 10 000 XTZ but only one delegator of 1 000 XTZ, my baker’s _staked-frozen_ amount will by default be 100,XTZ and its baking power will be based on 1 100XTZ. But if I make my baker to _autostake_, we’ll end up with a baking power based on 11 000XTZ unless a lower deposit limit is set.
Is this right? Sorry if this does not make any sense, this is just what I understood.
Also, _set\_deposit\_limit_ will be kept unchanged as Adaptive Issuance and Staking (formerly co-baking) features will remain disabled for now?
Should I got it properly, these sounds good, no further comments.
Thanks a lot for sharing these documents, that’s really helpful !
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### Author:  [@zaynah](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/zaynah)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2023, 11:49am UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/4 "2023-11-09T11:49:48Z")
The voting mechanism will still be here, but the EMA will not be able to activate Adaptive Issuance, and it will be reset to 0 at the start of the next Protocol, so it will have no effect in Oxford 2.
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### Author:  [@zaynah](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/zaynah)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2023, 11:49am UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/5 "2023-11-09T11:49:55Z")
Thank you for your feedback.
About the motivation for 7% for double baking slashing:
It is the value that we think makes sense to both keep the security high and fair with respect to the bakers.
For staking, what autostaking means is that the new staking mechanism will be used automatically to ensure that the behavior from Nairobi is preserved. In Nairobi, the amount of frozen tez was proportional to the delegation, from the baker’s own funds and its delegators. In Oxford 2, it will be the same.
With your example, a baker with 10k XTZ and 1k from delegation will automatically have 1100 XTZ staked, which would have been the amount frozen in Nairobi.
Regarding rights, it will also be the same, everything that is not overdelegated will contribute to the baking rights, as it was before.
And finally yes, set\_deposit\_limit will indeed be kept unchanged
Hope it helps clarifying.
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### Author:  [@Boulange](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Boulange)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2023, 12:15pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/6 "2023-11-09T12:15:18Z")
Yes, this is absolutely clear, thank you!
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### Author:  [@Anna](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Anna)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2023, 12:26pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/7 "2023-11-10T12:26:47Z")
Thank you for sharing these documents. We have reviewed them. Regarding slashing, it’s good to see the decreasing amount for double backing from 10% to 7%.
Concerning O² staking, is this the final version, or do you anticipate making further adjustments to this mechanism in the future?
Also, am I correct that there will be a change from frozen deposits to a staked-frozen amount in O² ? So, the tokens will be staked instead of being locked?
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### Author:  [@zaynah](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/zaynah)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2023, 6:32pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/8 "2023-11-10T18:32:50Z")
> The O² staking document describes the staking mechanism as it is currently implemented for Oxford 2 proposal, with minor differences as there will be no switch to manual staking so only automatic staking will be in our proposal. We will update the document next week, and will make a comment here.
> In Oxford 2, the staking for Bakers will preserve the behavior of Nairobi, you should have nothing to change in your setup.
> If Oxford 2 is voted by the bakers, we might make other proposals built upon it, any of such proposals will be discussed in a feedback loop to make sure they are made with the community.
> In particular, it would be the case if we propose a staking mechanism that allows staking from non baker.
> About a change from frozen deposits to a staked-frozen amount in O²: it is just a question of vocabulary, but there are the same things.
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### Author:  [@Primate411](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Primate411)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2023, 1:37pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/9 "2023-11-12T13:37:43Z")
Why not simply disable EMA altogether for now? It’s both simpler, less work and will foster more trust with the community.
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### Author:  [@zaynah](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/zaynah)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/10 "2023-11-13T18:28:01Z")
In terms of implementation, the team chose the simpler and less time-consuming solution to disable the per-block voting feature.
It’s already disabled and disabled in a simple way.
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### Author:  [@Anna](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Anna)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2023, 9:08am UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/11 "2023-11-15T09:08:21Z")
Thank you for explanation!
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### Author:  [@Anna](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Anna)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/12 "2023-11-22T15:51:03Z")
One more point we want to discuss:
While the slashing parameters have seen reductions, we believe they remain high, posing considerable risks for bakers. Instances of slashing in Tezos are very rare. So, elevating these parameters from 640 tez to 7% for double-baking amplifies risks, possibly resulting in increased commissions by bakers which means which means users will pay for the risks. Is there potential for reducing the slashing parameters to 5% instead of the current 7% parameter suggested in Oxford2?
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### Author:  [@Val](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Val)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/13 "2023-11-22T20:10:14Z")
@zaynah in terms of implementation it takes one additional line of code to make EMA static/non moving. In a simple way as you said. Why not do that?
@Anna can you elaborate how you did you get the 5%/why 5%? Double bake is not common situation. It happens only if you did something wrong or if you are double baking willingly. Personally I would expect the number to be much higher.
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### Author:  [@Boulange](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Boulange)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/14 "2023-11-22T21:59:11Z")
No need to investigate on what it would cost to implement this, but in a perfect world we would see slashing as incremental to allow one mistake to be made (accidents happen, when trying to set up a failover instance for example) but to punish recidive.
However, this is so rare that this doesn’t deserve so much work, at least for now.
For a fixed penalty, 5% looks low to us too, but that’s way better than the former 640 XTZ which is nothing for a big baker but a lot for a very small one.
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### Author:  [@Anna](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Anna)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2023, 4:23pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/15 "2023-11-23T16:23:50Z")
We are currently seeking a harmonious consensus between the initially set value of 10% and the revised 7%. However, even with this reduction, the associated risks remain notably heightened at 7%. Therefore, our proposal aims to mitigate these risks. It’s essential to note that a 7% value holds significance for both big and small bakers alike.
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### Author:  [@Boulange](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/Boulange)
#### Post date: [November 23, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/16 "2023-11-23T22:47:40Z")
Anna, when you speak of risks, do you mean the risk of baking twice accidentally during a maintenance operation or anything similar? Everstake is not a small bakery, so I expect your team to handle redundancy, which is where the risk could come from, but is my assumption right?
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### Author:  [@zaynah](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/zaynah)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/17 "2023-11-29T13:50:44Z")
Considering the discussion here and some others elsewhere, we decided to put the slashing of double baking at 5% in Oxford2.
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### Author:  [@zaynah](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/zaynah)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/18 "2023-11-29T15:30:13Z")
Thanks for the fruitful discussions and feedback.
[Oxford 2 in a Nutshell - Google Docs](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l6t51j6gSn6oO1C6B121nM44UoowNIrkG4NqcexI0Xg/edit?usp=sharing) describes the main changes in the Oxford 2 proposal (staking parts), it also contains links to the updated technical documentation shared above.
We added a document [O2 receipts - Google Docs](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YiEvUfIhLinTIkP_fKJA1aqAwmRo5nVXDf0IFZLd-Wc/edit?usp=sharing) that goes into more details on receipts in Oxford 2.
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### Author:  [@blockbakery](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/blockbakery)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/19 "2024-02-07T18:43:20Z")
Since the Frozen Deposit is no longer in effect, I am trying to determine how much of a balance I should maintain to optimize my validator service to not lose out on rewards. Is there a formula that I can use to guide my balance management?
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### Author:  [@blockbakery](https://forum.tezosagora.org/u/blockbakery)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2024, 1:56am UTC](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836/20 "2024-02-15T01:56:23Z")
So, I was using [tzkt.io](http://tzkt.io)’s “Frozen Deposit” to guide my required amount. There was a short time after moving to the Oxford 2 protocol upgrade that TzKt’s “Frozen Deposit” was not populating and was broken. This has since been fixed, so please ignore my post above!
[Next page](https://forum.tezosagora.org/t/feedback-request-slashing-and-automated-staking-for-bakers-in-the-oxford-2-proposal/5836.md?page=2)