I would focus more on that rather then bringing wrapped XTZ to Ethereum
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I also agree with bringing wETH to Tezos, and even better, build the next gen of Defi on Tezos. There are many issues with the current Defi anyway, and I think itās still too complicated for average users to use.
I donāt really understand the statements that āthis will only harm Tezosā or āthe fact that this is bound to harm, not help, the Tezos ecosystem.ā These seem to be one (important) personās opinion, and while others may share these beliefs, I havenāt seen any clear arguments supporting these assertions. In what way exactly would this project harm Tezos? Is the assumption simply that having access to Tezos tokens off-chain would prevent anyone from exploring any on-chain Tezos tokens, and that existing Tezos users would migrate to Ethereum-based assets because they start to use Wrapped Tezos and think that the grass may be greener on the other side? I sort of thought that it could actually work the other way around with Ethereum users exploring Tezos and being pulled into the Tezos ecosystem attracted by lower fees and better technology. Or is the concern about developers choosing building on to Ethereum instead of Tezos since they can potentially address both markets by staying primarily in the market that is dominant today vs migrating over? What about the retail consumers of Tezos, the people who canāt code but are interested in the technology and want to participate in some way? If thereās nothing for them to do other than bake or stake, arenāt you risking losing them to other projects because there is nothing for them to do other than bake or stake?
As an ICO participant myself, and a non-developer, I am very interested in the project and very much want it to succeed, but all Iāve been doing for the past 2+ years is bake, first with Bakechain, and now with Kiln. Kiln is way better than Bakechain ever was, so good in fact that Iāve spent most of the quarantine with my Baker sitting in my office 10 miles away from my house (more reliable internet) and Iāve never had to worry about any problems, which is really a testament to the Tezos code and to Obsidianās developers. But what can I really do with Tezos right now other than bake? I know some early Bitcoin guys and I have known the Inveniam Capital guys for years, before they became involved in blockchain, and I have a private equity firm, so I have always been interested in finding a way of doing something with one of our companies on Tezos, but havenāt figured out an angle yet. So that leaves me to my personal holdings, and honestly my reaction to Wrapped Tezos was excitement that I would have something new to play around with. Dexter and Quipuswap seem cool and I plan to try them out, but the assets are limited, and it seems like we also need a native stable coin to do much with them. I know that there is the StableTez project but everyone on Reddit seems to love to crap on this project and on Kevin Mehrabi even though he seems to be trying to develop things to expand the Tezos ecosystem. Then of course there is the mysterious Checker, which may not even exist anywhere other than in Arthurās mind.
Finally, as a business owner myself, you want to have a big market for whatever you happen to be selling, and while you may have a strong affinity for one segment of a market, if you want to maximize your chances of success, you should not limit yourself to that segment. Arthur used to work in the high frequency trading space, and they make their money primarily by trading one market against another. If an HFT had a strategy of trading only one low volume market, however much they liked it, theyād be out of business in no time at all. You have to think about your business first and make sure it succeeds no matter where it happens to do business, which is precisely why Kathleen has not committed to Emergents existing on Tezos. She has a duty to her stakeholders to make sure that her business is a success, whether Tezos succeeds or not. I expect that things are the same at StakerDAO.
Now as to whether they received a grant from the Tezos Foundation, I would say that if the grant was given with the condition that they build on the Tezos blockchain exclusively, itās totally fine to challenge what they have done, but if the grant is non-exclusive, as long as they are doing what they are are supposed to on Tezos, why should they not connect to an existing chain that could bring them more users?
Anyway, back to the beginning, Iām not sure why this project would not have the potential to bring more people to Tezos than we lose to Ethereum. I am not convinced that STOs ever bring people to Tezos (and the TF paid substantial amounts to groups to tokenize their STOs on Tezos instead of other chains), so why not try other avenues, particularly when DeFi is such a hot space? Unless I hear any convincing arguments to the contrary, Iām personally looking forward to exploring Wrapped Tezos and staying involved in the Tezos ecosystem, because without dapps, without assets to trade, etc, Iām just going to get fatigued eventually and move on to Polkadot, Compound, Yearn, or some other new thing that looks interesting, or move to some other asset I can at least borrow against vs just letting my baker do its thing miles away.
Just my 2 cents as a āretailā non-technical Tezos person.
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Totally agree with Arthur about this and I will say even further. Useless tokens will harm Tezos and Arthurās original idea to be different from ETH was to use the native Tezos coin for dapps. Please, respect that vision.
I already pointed out this with VIAZ and the project had no succes at all.
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juw000 great comment and completely agree. Fees on Ethereum are currently running at 900k USD an hour (yes you read that right!) and is completely full, so the only way to get your transaction processed is paying a higher fee than all of the 160k pending transactions. In order to run more DeFi on Ethereum then other Dapps will be pushed out. If you build a bridge to a full eco-system what will happen? The reason wBTC is so successful on Ethereum is because itās cheaper to move BTC on Ethereum than on the BTC chain. If someone added wETH on Tezos then it would be much cheaper to move ether on Tezos than on Ethereum and that will attract the defi builders.
We donāt seem to have much faith in our own eco-system if we think building a bridge to Ethereum will automatically mean a one-way bridge. We should have far more confidence in the Tezos eco-system and its potential by opening it up to Ethereum devs. We believe that building a bridge to Ethereum will do the opposite as Tezos could do the heavy lifting for Ethereum. High fees in Ethereum is an advantage for Tezos so letās embrace it. Most Ethereum users want to see this load move off of Ethereum in order to reduce fees as Ethereum 2 is still years away. If they are offered a cheaper alternative, then they will come.
Letās build the bridges and let the community and the market decide how it wants to use these tools. We just donāt see any downside, because Ethereum is full, and there is plenty of upside for the Tezos community. Let the market decide how these bridges will be used. With the fee cost of Ethereum, it is unlikely that wXTZ would be that successful on Ethereum anyway, but we can see wETH being a big success on Tezos and may also bring in Ethereum devs to build on Tezos. Although we donāt have to guess, just do it and let the market play out.
We are decentralised, letās not pick winners and losers now, just build the tech and let the market decide. Jonas wants to build wXTZ but more importantly they are building the bridges and as a long term ICO Tezos holder we can only see the upside to this approach. The one thing we are sure of is that the bridge wonāt flow to Ethereum as it just doesnāt have the capacity.
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The point is, this is not considered in the concept and as it sounds not even planned for release.
So what is left, is a one-way bridge to Ethereum.
I think I could live with the idea (even if i am not 100% in favor) if it includes a wETH Bridge at release.
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I agree with @murbardās point. Now that the discussion about such approaches is open, I would rather see a bridge of wrapping all popular eth tokens to Tezos, building pools on dexter and quipuswap while reducing gas fee and all other friction eth has. Not that it should all be about tokenised assets on cross-chain but I think good defi primitives can be build over tezos natively to further unlock the potential of Tezos.
While what StakerDao is doing is totally their choice, I would like to see their views about tokenising eth defi primities to tezos.
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100%!!! Brilliant 
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So what youāre saying is that StakerDao is currently focusing on building a wrapped XTZ(ERC20) for Etherem but if someoneās wants to have a wrapped ETH(FA1.2) for Tezos they should go build it themselves? 
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Are you saying buying wXTZ on Ethereum with our ether and moving it to Tezos for baking is not a good thing? We would definitely use it.
Why not just buy XTZ instead?
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We donāt like centralised exchanges and much prefer to buy on decentralised exchanges. We are all about decentralisation in everything we do. Isnāt that the point? Also we like lots of different options not fewer. Donāt you think that is a good thing?
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Sure I do, but why shouldnāt we make a bridge for Ethereum to Tezos, a wrapped ETH(FA1.2) instead of the wXTZ and use it on DEXs built on Tezos? Bring more liquidity to Tezos and away from Ethereum
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Do both and see which one wins or maybe both will. Letās not decide now, just build stuff and the market will do the rest. The whole point of decentralisation is that you and I donāt decide the winner and currently we have no working DEXs on Tezos anyway, so lets just join the dots that are already there. As I said before Ethereum is completely full so there is nowhere for liquidity to go, so can only be good for Tezos. I would also point out that the Tezos Foundation was a major sponsor of the Ethereum Devcon5 so they definitely want to build bridges. Ethereum devs would definitely support moving liquidity from Ethereum as high fees are no good for anyone, in fact many would even help so lets give them some options.
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well everyone wants to take a bite of ethereumās network effect but why would anyone want to move their tokens from eth to tezos? people pay these fees because thereās a reason for it, they make money. Even 0 fee wouldnāt work, just look at say xDai/poa or whatever compatible with eth with no fees, still no one uses it, even though you can run uniswap there
Now we can see how eth dexāes bootstrap liquidity. Can we compete with that? Doubt it.
Uniswap is not the case, itās not even that good, but you can trade stuff there with minimal slippage. Like sell $1m eth with 1% slippage which is better than binance.
idc about wXTZ on ethereum really, Iād like to see everything built on tezos but right now thereās nothing you can do with xtz other than baking. we can move tokens from eth but thereās no use for it on tezos.
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Please note I am kind of a newcomer to tezos but I will try to tell you my point of view as food for thought.
Reading the comments I understand that the main concern here is that people holding tezos will find a new way to move over to ETH attracted by the DeFi craze that has been going on, but isnāt that happening already anyway?
I mean the people selling their XTZ to buy ETH will go there anyway, the only way to keep those is to build and raise our own DeFi ecosystem. So in that point of view isnāt the Staker Bridge actually āhelpingā since now the Tezos holders can ālockā their XTZ (instead of selling) to go try the ETH craze?
I understand that this is only a short term benefit (if you consider it one) and I also understand the point Arthur is making about this project removing the incentive of building DeFi primitives on Tezos but I canāt help to wonder why there are no native tokens built on the tezos ecosystem already? Will that really make any difference?
On his first comment Arthur said it probably will harm tezos āat this stageā. I assume by that he means while we have no native tokens, DeFi primitives, Dexs etc. So I canāt help to think when will we get to the ānext stageā? How long will it take? So far we donāt even have a usable stablecoin afaik. And I am not trying to be negative or anything but I think that this will actually help with people that will want to lock their XTZ instead of selling them to try the DeFi on ETH until we get to that next stage as a blockchain.
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This is a fantastic idea, If StakerDao manages to transfer ETH/ tokens and DiFi from the ETH chain to Tezos, we will see Tezosā Great potential. This will do much more for Tezos than anything else at the moment.
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Why not build bridge to migrate ERC20 tokens to Tezos blockchain but the opposite?
This is a really bad move.
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The point is you can do both as itās just software. Remember this is decentralised and let the market decide what is good and bad not us. That is the whole point of decentralised software we donāt need to decide what is good or bad. If it makes economic sense it will get built. As a community we should encourage all development and let the market pick the winners. Always seems strange to us that people who believe in decentralisation want to decide what should run on Tezos, sort of ironic.
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We currently do have one live DEX - Atomex, by Baking Bad. Also DEXter will be live by the end of this month(confirmed recently by the CamlCase founder) followed by Quipuswap (soon i hope). I agree, we could do bothā¦but it doesnāt sound like StakerDao has those intentions. Up to this point StakerDao has focused more on developing projects for Ethereum then on Tezos, wXTZ is just another example of that. I really do hope they find their way back to Tezos. Because at this point I see them as just another blockchain company following the herd
