Bakers, can we remove the tax? Is scaring the capital away

[tezoswakenbake]

The tax is some serious FUD, even if it is a small 0.1% tax or a 0.33% (currently in LB), it doesn’t matter. Please stop acting as if this wasn’t true, market is punishing us more than the rest of the cryptos. No one wants to put their hard-earned money in a chain that can tax its investors. It is just common sense, please for the love of god, bakers, kindly stop this nonsensical self-destructive tax.

When price was going up to $9, people didn’t even know they were being taxed, when more and more people found out that it was actually a tax, they started dumping it.

You can ignore reality, but you can’t ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

[tokyo_on_rails]

• You calling it a tax does not make it a tax.

• I don’t see any evidence of it negatively affecting the value of XTZ. Tezos may have underperformed so far this year, but it did so before LB as well and there are other explanations for it.

• The only FUD I see about LB is always coming from the same few people. The vast majority are not so bothered by it, based on my conversations with everyone and daily observations of the community. Even the largest baker who was not in support of LB still voted for it and has not sold any, and has actually increased his position since. Other bakers that have sold some did not do so because of LB.

• Your behavior lately on this topic is definitely bordering on spam. Everyone understands your position well, you post the same things repeatedly every day, and you have gained no traction in support from the majority of bakers, which should show you that at this time, the community does not agree with you.

[tezoswakenbake]

@tokyo_on_rails

You calling it a tax does not make it a tax.

Again with “is not a tax argument”? For the love of god, please stop denying it. If bakers raise the “tax” from 0.3% annually to 50% annually, would you finally agree is a tax? Or 50% is still a “voluntary contribution” sir? Unbelievable that we are still having this discussion.

If we, using a majority vote, extracts 0.3% of all the balance of all the wallets of all TEZ hodlers in a single shot, that would be a tax no?? What it makes it different from using the TEZ printing machine to print 0.3% annually or in a single shot as well sir??? What is the difference? NONE.

@tokyo_on_rails

• I don’t see any evidence of it negatively affecting the value of XTZ. Tezos may have underperformed so far this year, but it did so before LB as well and there are other explanations for it.

Just an additional 0.3% inflation a year, the kind of inflation that dilutes the wealth of all hodlers and the BAD FUD it brings to investors knowing they are being “taxed” oh sorry “forced to contribute voluntarily” to social programs.

Other than that, is the only damage LB has done to the tezos price, especially when LB has delivered no benefit to the ecosystem! Almost null trading volume! No one is using the liquidity available. Big capital obviously is not interested in using LB either to buy or sell.

It is like if we were funding some teachers in a public school with PUBLIC money to TEACH students, but there are no students interested in going to that school.

Why we keep funding the teachers (Lp’s)?

@tokyo_on_rails

• The only FUD I see about LB is always coming from the same few people. The vast majority are not so bothered by it, based on my conversations with everyone and daily observations of the community. Even the largest baker who was not in support of LB still voted for it and has not sold any, and has actually increased his position since. Other bakers that have sold some did not do so because of LB.

The vast majority want it, aha… 60%. The other 40% sold from $9 all the way to $5 sir.

@tokyo_on_rails

Your behavior lately on this topic is definitely bordering on spam. Everyone understands your position well, you post the same things repeatedly every day, and you have gained no traction in support from the majority of bakers, which should show you that at this time, the community does not agree with you.

I really don’t care if I gain support from the community. I’m just here posting facts, it is a tax, even if you keep denying the undeniable, Taxes are very BAD FUD specially for the crypto sphere, specially when the crypto sphere is full of libertarians and anarchists that find crypto as a way to escape from the taxes of their govt, and they don’t come here to invest in TAX coin. This is a basic common-sense and logical fact. The type of market inside the crypto sphere of people who actually likes to be TAXED, is very little, basically only the remaining of us.

@tokyo_on_rails

spam

My last post about LB here was in Kevin’s coin USDtz in his thread 4 of November. 11 days without posting about LB, and 14 days later. That is not considered spam.

[shakeNbake]

The majority doesn’t agree with you, and your tantrums across different channels certainly don’t help. Your conduct has made it hard to take seriously anything you have to say now and in the future. The person recently spreading the most FUD about tezos is YOU.

[tezoswakenbake]

You either provide an argument if it is a tax or not and why, or you either provide an argument if LB is viable and practical or not and why.

Not just come here to say, nobody likes you. That’s not an argument. What’s next, that I’m blamed for tezos bad performance because i supposedly “FUD”? Just because I complain about a tax? I wouldn’t be complaining if LB was funded voluntarily by private money and not by a majority vote to use the printing machine to fund it.

I care less about if the majority agrees with me or not, at the end of the day we all going to take @JarrodWoodard advice of “if you don’t like to be taxed, sell and leave”, probably there are people that took his advice and sold already.

And let me make it clear, I’m not saying LB was the only factor it led to Tezos bad performance, but it was definitively ONE of the factors.

[JarrodWoodard]

Editing this to not invite engagement with the troll.

The obvious liar quotes me as having referred to LB as a tax.

[JarrodWoodard]

Thank you for speaking up, it really helps to have people in the community do so, not just admins.

[tezoswakenbake]

You said, that if the majority voted to expropriate you, you would sell in a heartbeat. An expropriation is basically a tax at 100% charged to a single individual or to a group. No different from a tax at 0.3% charged annually to all hodlers via the money printing machine.

You acknowledged is a tax, and you don’t even realize it, by acknowledging that expropriation can happen in tezos, you also are acknowledging that taxes can happen in tezos. And also, “You don’t like it, sell and leave” awesome response to scare away external capital investment, good job Jarrod

Imagine taxing the current hodlers, while scaring away new capital

[tezoswakenbake]

[RichAyotte]

It’s a tax that the super majority wanted. Now you must convince that super majority that it’s harmful and that we should revert and so far it’s really not obvious to me so you need to collect some evidence that shows the harm, pre and post LB.

[tezoswakenbake]

Finally, someone that also has the economic knowledge and the intellectual honesty to recognize that is a tax. We are advancing.

Majorities are not rational, if majorities were rational, democracy would have worked throughout history and democracies always failed. Majorities are irrational, which is why constitutions exists, to limit the majority to do stupid things.

Even if LB practically worked as intended (which it didn’t, it was a total failure on the practical side as well) the issue is that is funded with public money, the moment bakers vote to print extra TEZ, and they can redirect that TEZ to fund a social program, either LB or an insurance fund, whatever social program, doesn’t matter, that TEZ that they printed is PUBLIC MONEY now, that money was not collected charging taxes to each account, to each wallet with balance on it, rather it was printed like the FED does, but it still a tax on the hodler of that money.

So even if the social programs would work…taxes are just very bad fud, the crypto sphere is full of libertarians and anarchists who don’t like the idea of being taxed by another govt, they come here to escape from that.

Why can’t it be done the same with a FA 1.2 token, as a private project with its private investors? Like SUSHI swap does with their own token? And leave XTZ which is the currency of the main protocol free of inflationary taxes?

Why we have to FUD the main protocol currency by taxing current hodlers, while scaring away new capital? New capital knows that the majority vote is not limited, the majority can raise that tax to 100% a year if the majority wants it, there is nothing beside the rationality of the majority that can limit what the majority can do with its vote, new capital will not invest in XTZ knowing that a majority can vote to violate their property rights of keeping the fruit of their labor and hard-earned money. That’s exactly how democracies failed, people thought that the majorities were wise, we all know it was never the case.

Another point against PUBLIC MONEY use, public money is always used to do corruption, public workers always find a way to keep it and enrich themselves and that’s why they always do a bad job.

[RichAyotte]

@tezoswakenbake

Majorities are not rational, if majorities were rational, democracy would have worked throughout history and democracies always failed. Majorities are irrational, which is why constitutions exists, to limit the majority to do stupid things.

Let’s go at this bit by bit. Majorities can be evil or dumb which is why Socrates wasn’t a fan but the Tezos democracy is different than modern government democracies in that it’s not one vote per person. Instead, the votes are distributed proportionally to the stake holders and this key difference is the best defense we have against dumb or evil non-proportional people majorities.

Secondly, if this sort of proportional democracy doesn’t seem fair or optimal to you then how do you suggest we make decisions on the changes or direction of a common good?

Let’s figure this out first before getting into taxation and LB.

[tezoswakenbake]

@RichAyotte

Let’s go at this bit by bit. Majorities can be evil or dumb which is why Socrates wasn’t a fan but the Tezos democracy is different than modern government democracies in that it’s not one vote per person. Instead, the votes are distributed proportionally to the stake holders and this key difference is the best defense we have against dumb or evil non-proportional people majorities.

It is true that stake based majority is different from 1 person 1 vote majority, but the problem is that both are majorities regardless, the dumb factor is still present. And that’s not the best defense, the best defense is a constitution that limits the majority from their unlimited majority rule, with a constitution, the majority has no power to ask for or gain the infringement of individual property rights. The protection of individual property rights, is what is going to make tezos future-proof, not just the fact that we have “on-chain governance” as people commonly say, a chain that can violate property rights with a majority vote has not future at all, unless we have a constitution that prohibits bakers from printing all the money they want.

@RichAyotte

Secondly, if this sort of proportional democracy doesn’t seem fair or optimal to you then how do you suggest we make decisions on the changes or direction of a common good?

For the common good, we must respect the property rights of every individual. We can’t just violate pp rights for “the common good”, no investor would want to invest in Tezos knowing they can violate his property rights with the excuse of… “it is for the common good that we sacrifice you bro”. If things needs funding, then it must be funded voluntarily by private investors. Always.

If in the future when TF runs out of money, and they can’t fund devs like nomadic labs, nomadic labs will need to ask for funding, we can make a voluntary treasury still managed by a majority vote, and the people most interested in contributing voluntarily to that treasury would be BIG bakers and big XTZ hodlers, because they are already heavily invested into Tezos anyways, and they are the ones that will contribute more to the treasury, similarly in bitcoin, which devs are funded privately, and the biggest investors ARE the ones heavily invested already in bitcoin, big miners, etc.

Luckily we have many years more of TF funding, but in the meantime, let’s stop scaring the external capital investment away with a tax, even if it is a small one, is enough to scare the capital away, specially funding social programs like LB that are a big failure. And let’s work into implementing an on-chain Constitution, so we can be REALLY REALLY be future-proof.

[JarrodWoodard]

By what grounds would you call this a tax?

Taxes are compulsory and levied by states. Anyone can end their relationship with Tezos and LB anytime they want, the relationship is implicitly and necessarily entirely voluntary. Not so with actual taxes and states.

[tezoswakenbake]

The FED prints money, which is a tax on the hodlers of the US dollar, and the US govt doesn’t need to apply coercion to the individuals in order to print more money, they just print it whatever amount they want, whenever they want. USD hodlers can always escape from the dilution by exchanging their USD to other assets, but that doesn’t mean is not a tax on USD hodlers, just as well it won’t mean is not a tax on TEZ hodlers.

There is no difference, if the US govt retrieve 1% of all the USD balances of every bank account wallet, or if they use the FED to print 1% more USD, both are TAXES. In fact, it is worst if they print, because the tax also hurts and dilutes physical CASH owners as well, not just the USD hodlers that have their money in the bank.

Every economist classify the act of the FED printing money as a tax…only here in tezzotopia people is denying it.

[shakeNbake]

Future core development will be funded through invoices attached to proposals. You’re involved with a project that you have philosophical differences with, while others knew what they were getting into and have no problems with it. You seem to just be figuring these things out. I heard EOS has a constitution, maybe give that project a try instead.

[tezoswakenbake]

Please use a bit of common sense and logic, that won’t happen in years, maybe decades since TF will be funding them. And when TF runs out of money, those invoices WILL BE PAID, by private investor’s voluntary funding, not by taxes. You know who will be the ones that will invest in their investment? MAJOR bakers and TEZ hodlers.

Just as bitcoin devs are being funded privately by miners and BIG bitcoin hodlers, there’s no reason, it won’t work here as well.

Okay, then you are opposed to have a constitution that respect PP rights of hodlers? How long until TEZOS dies due to this childish mentality of, oohhh go to EOS, here we don’t like constitutions, we like taxes and violation of property rights of others…

[tezoswakenbake]

There’s a reason why tezos agora wiki mentions constitutionalism, sir…

[shakeNbake]

I apologize to all those reading for feeding the troll. Moving on now

[tezoswakenbake]

Sir, when there are no arguments, you have to resort to insults and disqualifications?