Feedback Request: a new complementary maximal bound issuance for the Quebec protocol proposal

I think your comment comes from a place of “rulers” and people “governed”. The way to protect any governance system is with direct visible participation. On Tezos that’s done with staked/delegated tez that votes and is vocal, consistent and organized outreach/coalitioning. You are not just governed, you have a powerful voice, even when you post less than perfectly effective responses such as the one I’m responding to here. You can be even more effective.

The so called “circle of people” is indeed limited in this case, but not JUST because large bakers are making decisions, but also because the “governed” do not see themselves as decision makers. The option is there, it’s an open system and continued effort produces results!

I’m writing all this as someone who’s not necessarily a large holder but someone who has found a voice of support from bakers big and small when it came to decisions that needed to be delayed or made differently (from my perspective) in protocol governance.

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I largely agree with @Val’s take on the matter. But if doing nothing until we can get more extensive research done first seems too extreme, then I also agree with @tokyo_on_rails’s assessment that the falloff is too gradual near the target and doesn’t truly incentivize increasing stake once the ratio surpasses about 30-35%. I suggest to rotate the proposed curve 180 degrees. Something like this (black curve):

This way the incentive to increase stake remains high while the current ratio is far off from the target ratio. But if the current ratio is already near the target ratio, incentive will either greatly increase as the ratio falls, or will quickly decrease as it approaches (or surpasses) the target ratio.

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Reading V‘s reasoning I agree we probably should not immediately change emissions. At least not before the smooth ramp of starting AI is concluded and we see the adoption for at least several months. I have to admit that the implications for the economy and security for Tezos are not easy to grasp for me. Thank you V for always explaining your thoughts so clearly!

I want to ask again what would be the downsides of allowing a higher stake ratio? I imagine this would make baking even more attractive, even for small bakers.

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I agree with this Adaptive maximum proposal, as well with reducing the delegators rewards in benefit of stakers rewards.

In the meantime, there are some ultra simple and easy ideas (even for Tezos Foundation and Commons guys…) to increase staking ratio with no further protocol amendments:

  • Make all Tezos Foundation bakers to stake

  • Ask all Tezos Founders and Early Investors to stake

  • Use Tezos official accounts to promote Exchangers offering staking, and explaining the benefit to do so over delegating. Use different languages.

  • Use Tezos official accounts to promote Bakers offering staking, and explaining the benefit to do so over delegating. Use different languages.

  • Ask to all Tezos wallets to include staking feature in a more atractive way than delegating

  • Any xtz payment from Tezos Foundation or any subsidized organization should be delivered to staking accounts. For instance, the Tezos Community Program winners should provide a staked account in order to receive the prize.

  • Do some NFT airdrop in twitter among users that staked among last 7 days or so. Ask retweet, like and sharing with three friends. That could incentivize delegators move to staking.

  • And so on…

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I am not sure about the proposed change :thinking: Seems to me the incentives for staking once issuance is capped at 2-3% is minimal, so we can expect staking to stop at 20%. Is that good enough?

I think I like the proposed curve by @BakeTzForMe better. :thinking:

In either case there is no rush adding this change while we are @ 17.5% staked atm. Is this classic “premature optimization” :sweat_smile: We can always add this change in a later proposal if this becomes an actual problem.

I think it is a good idea to keep incentives high for people to stake all the time we are quite a ways away from the 50% goal.

Oh and yes, I would also like to see reduced rewards for delegators.

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I largely agree with the sentiment expressed by Val and others.

I think changes could first be considered for delegation rewards share against staked rewards if we want to incentivize staking. Perhaps also changing the staking limit to 10x from 5. I think these are a preferable first adjustments over the new progressive curve for the time being. We should let the new system shake out with the broader community and let the concept percolate longer. I’m also worried about making an already complex staking mechanism (which I am still trying to fully understand) even more complex with this new feature.

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As a staker (not a baker) I strongly support this proposal. At the social layer I think we should all support minimum viable issuance as Tezos’s monetary policy, same as in Ethereum. This is how Tezos can be seen as a respectable and hard asset. Issuance is a zero-sum game and creates sell pressure, but it is of course needed for security. So we should issue as little XTZ as is possible while achieving sufficient security.

The current system may actually lead to increased issuance of XTZ over time (as compared to the pre-adaptive issuance system) and this is awful and will lead to horrendous price action on XTZ.

I do also support what most have said in this thread, and that is to further reduce delegation rewards compared to staking rewards. In fact, is delegation necessary at all? If you do not put your funds at risk, are you contributing meaningfully to Tezos?

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Delegation rewards the risk taken by holding XTZ, as well as the preference given to Tezos by users. As with any investment, I don’t think we can say it is a non-existent risk.
This risk is not as high as staking XTZ, and this is why its reward is halved compared to staking. It could be lower, but I don’t think it should be zero.

Being rewarded while remaining liquid is a good incentive for holding. It has even been a key selling point for a long time.

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I feel we’re really jumping the gun with all this and we’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We’d have hit the 50% target by now (and therefore have a lower rate of issuance) if we had merely improved the information campaign. I also believe we will reach that target relatively quickly if we take a few very simple steps before considering a protocol-based solution.

Put simply, this is a marketing problem, not a protocol problem, and we shouldn’t rush into a protocol change that could end up backfiring in the long run. So far, the messaging has missed the mark completely, but that’s okay (it’s early and to be expected). It’s already being worked on by the very bright and hardworking marketing/comms people at firms like Trilitech, as well as by independent marketing efforts from members of the decentralized community.

The Real Problem:

Everything on stake.tezos.com, tezos.com, and @tezos tweets, etc., has simply prompted people to begin “staking”—without any implicit reference to (nor correction of) the fact that we’ve been using the terms ‘staking’ and ‘delegating’ interchangeably for the past six years!

So what? Well, almost every single [delegating] tez holder that has seen them believes that those ‘staking’ prompts do not apply to them and are to be overlooked—that is, they believe they have been staking all this time. Of the over 6 million funded Tezos accounts out there (people who are passively holding tez), a very tiny amount know that our tokenomics have changed; they don’t know that there is a new locked-staking mechanism and that when we say ‘staking’ we mean that, and we no longer mean liquid-PoS/‘delegating’—let alone that in order to participate in locked-staking there is something for them to do.

Those of us who are very deep into Tezos very easily miss what’s going on in the head of the normie, and so any idea that “oh wow we’re not at 50% yet, let’s control inflation by cutting the reward rates through a protocol upgrade” forgets why we had this upper bound rate where it is in the first place.

High inflation (not hitting the target) should incentivize us to improve our community marketing (methods, messaging, mediums, media) instead of immediately going for a protocol fix.

A Different Solution:

In the long run, focusing on marketing and not on a change in issuance will serve us much better because it’s not just about hitting targets and reducing the rate right now—we also want every tez holder to be aware of these new tokenomics so that they can competitively respond to the continuing incentives of adaptive issuance as the market (and staking ratio) becomes more volatile.

We need to allow time for these improved messaging efforts to be fully implemented and to take effect before considering any drastic actions. Rushing into changes now contradicts the original intent behind setting the upper bound rate where it is.

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This is solid reasoning.

I would suggest reducing Delegator Rewards but allowing the current AI system to operate longer, as @Val mentioned, before implementing any significant changes. This approach helps avoid adding unnecessary complexity to the system prematurely.

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By the way, could somebody share the updated Paris B Adaptative issuance curve?

I only reach the Paris A curve, which extrapolating the Paris B values shows me that at 18% of staking ratio we should have already started to decrease the issuance rate… something that has not happened in fact.

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What do you mean by ParisB issuance curve? ParisA/B/C have the same definition of adaptive issuance.

I only reach the Paris A curve, which extrapolating the Paris B values shows me that at 18% of staking ratio we should have already started to decrease the issuance rate… something that has not happened in fact.

Can you share a link to the calculation/data or add more context? Just that we are clear, the graph you shared assumes a constant value of the dynamic rate.

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This is another reason to be cautious about increasing the complexity of the system, as many still have trouble grasping its essence.

To clarify, the curve is just one part of the equation. There’s both the curve and the bonus. The curve alone doesn’t fully capture the essence of adaptive inflation. The bonus is the key component that provides the necessary properties for adaptive inflation. The bonus increases as long as we remain below the target, up to the maximum issuance rate. For more detailed information, please refer to the adaptive issuance documentation.

Yes @GermanD, this is a clear misunderstanding regarding the dynamic rate/the bonus.

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Maybe I am flooding the thread with my misunderstandings… anyway, as far as I understood the maximum issuance rate on ParisA was 5% while in ParisB was increased to 10% to satisfy and garantee bakers vote… isn’t it?

Then what I do is to extrapolate that ParisA curve to ParisB values marked in red 0,05 and 0,1 (see the edited curve of below).

As the fixed issuance ratio before Adaptative issuance was 5,4%, making this extrapolation I understand that the current adaptative issuance should have already started to decrease below 5,4%… is that correct or I am making wrong assumptions?

@Val already noticed something about the bonuses explained on the technical documentation… I had no idea about that as in the mainstream medium articles I just paid attention to that curve.

Maybe I am flooding the thread with my misunderstandings… anyway, as far as I understood the maximum issuance rate on ParisA was 5% while in ParisB was increased to 10% to satisfy and garantee bakers vote… isn’t it?

Not at all. I think it is important for us (or to me at least) to understand all sources of confusion, and see how we can help.

I understand now what you meant by Paris A :slight_smile: What you are calling ParisA is not the ParisA proposal but the original implementation of Adaptive Issuance in Oxford (see the original blog post for a snapshot of the old spec).

This was indeed revised for ParisA/B. The progressive max bounds were introduced, and the global hard cap on issuance was lifted from 5% to (eventually) 10% – by eventually I mean after cycle 808. The “Adaptive Issuance in Paris” blog post summarizes these changes, and more details are developed in the Paris main documentation

Then what I do is to extrapolate that ParisA curve to ParisB values marked in red 0,05 and 0,1 (see the edited curve of below).
As the fixed issuance ratio before Adaptative issuance was 5,4%, making this extrapolation I understand that the current adaptative issuance should have already started to decrease below 5,4%… is that correct or I am making wrong assumptions?

Right, as @Val replied you are not taking into account the impact of the dynamic rate component correctly. That graph uses an example value for the dynamic rate which gets added to the static rate.

The UI of the adaptive issuance simulator on https://tezos.gitlab.io/ai-simulator/ or the UI by “the Chads” on https://ai.xtzchad.xyz/ might be more useful here to see how the inal adaptive rate evolves. The first one also plots the two components, and how they interact with the maximum bounds, but you need to feed approximately) the historical staked ratios.

@Val already noticed something about the bonuses explained on the technical documentation… I had no idea about that as in the mainstream medium articles I just paid attention to that curve.

The dynamic rate and the different components are (imho) properly defined in the spec/doc and more technical entries, but I do agree that we need to do more on the higher-level material.

(Hope this helps)

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Yes, that was a stupid mistake. My bad memory, sorry.

So considering that the issuance is increasing much more than expected in anyway, I strongly agree with the new adaptive maximum proposal… as at this pace the issuance rate will increase more and more till next 2025 alt seasson is over, and this would have an horrendous impact to the already horrendous xtz price action.

Hey, dear community! Thanks Nomadic Labs team so much for putting forward this proposal, and thanks everyone for all the thoughts, ideas, and active discussions surrounding it!

We are open to changes, but we believe that the timing might not be ideal for this particular adjustment. As we focus on onboarding more participants into staking, we’re concerned that reducing incentives further could challenge our current efforts. When the staked ratio reaches the 20-30% range, the incentives may become too low to maintain momentum in staking, which could potentially slow down participation.

We feel it’s crucial to first focus on raising awareness about staking in Tezos. This includes developing educational materials and actively spreading the word within the community.

Once we see some tangible results from these initiatives, it might be a better time to revisit the discussion on the adaptive maximum. Implementing such changes now could be premature, especially considering the potential impact on rewards.

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You Everstake guys pushed to increase Issuance Maximum from 5% in Oxford, to 10% in Paris and now we have more inflation than before. Considering the original Adaptative issuance idea was to decrease the issuance… it is clear you played very well with your voting power (which is a blocking minority).

Now you disagree with the Adaptative Maximum and you anticipe you will vote against. Ok, you have the right to protect your baking rewards as high as possible, well played again.

However, if your justification to do so is real, how can we measure that the awareness actions you mention are being implemented correclty? Can you share a list of “proper” awareness ideas?
In this way it can be decided to go for adaptative maximum right after that “proper” awareness ideas show not being enough to accelerate the staking ratio pace.

I say this cause I have also serious concerns that the organizations that historically have assumed these kind of tasks (Tezos Commons, Trillitech,…) are not competent enough to achieve a significant increase in the staking ratio with awareness actions (in fact they already tried)… so it would be totally unfair that the whole community should carry with a higher inflation rate if that “proper” awareness ideas are not properly executed…

Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion.

Based on your feedback in this thread and other discussions on social media and other community channels, we have decided to revise our plans for the Quebec proposal.

Next week, once a new governance period starts, we will release two variants of the Quebec protocol proposal:

  • The Quebec A proposal will feature, notably,:

  • The Quebec B proposal will include all features of Quebec A and reduce the relative weight of delegated funds in the computation of baking power to one third of their nominal value (this relative weight is currently set to one half).

Reflecting on the discussion so far, most concerns focused on whether the inclusion of the adaptive maximum bound is needed (and why to include it now in the Quebec proposal) and on whether the proposed curve would reduce staking incentives too aggressively.

As for the first concern, we believe that it is best to proactively future-proof the incentives mechanism in order to avoid excessive issuance than to reactively make corrections after the fact. The proposed adaptive maximum bound would improve the predictability of the final issuance rate, tying it closer to the static rate and the target staked ratio. Moreover, should either Quebec proposal be accepted by a majority of bakers in the next governance cycle, it would activate on mainnet before the progressive bounds transition to their final stage. In the meantime, we can continue advancing new and ongoing complementary efforts to improve tooling, documentation, communication and marketing of the (still new) Adaptive Issuance and Staking mechanism, so as to boost its adoption.

As for the concerns on the impact on the curve on incentives, we acknowledge the observations in the thread, and the Quebec proposals include a revised definition of the curve to address them. We develop on this and other topics below.

Adjusting the adaptive maximum curve

The discussion above brought concerns that the proposed curve reduced incentives too aggressively and that, as a result, the incentives when the staked ratio is over 30% might not be appealing enough to nudge the staked ratio to its 50% target.

We have adjusted the definition of the adaptive maximum curve in the Quebec proposal to address this concern without sacrificing its original purpose: providing a tighter maximal bound which follows closely the static rate component and avoids excessive issuance.

The revised definition implemented in both Quebec A and B proposals is:

adaptive maximum(r) = (1 + 9 * ((50 - 100 * r) / 42 ) ^ 2 ) / 100

This definition results in higher maximal issuance than the original curve:

Staked ratio Adaptive maximum in OP Adaptive maximum in Quebec A / B
40% 1.2% 1.5%
20% 3.9% 5.6%
10% 6.4% 9.2%
5% 10% 10%

The change in incentives becomes more evident by plotting both candidates together (you will find the sources for these plots and updated definitions in this collab notebook). Notably, we observe that maximum issuance is kept over 2% until the staked ratio is above 35%.

In the discussion above, @tokyo_on_rails suggested a decreasing linear curve and @BakeTzForMe a 180 degree rotation of the original curve alternatives. We believe that the new proposed curve implements a better bound in both cases, as the alternatives would fail to bound the dynamic rate tightly with the static rate and therefore allow for excessive maximal issuance. This can be observed by plotting the maximal value for the dynamic rate together with the static rate and the adaptive maximum:

Reducing the weight of delegated funds in QuebecB.

The Quebec B variant proposes to reduce the weight of delegated funds towards the computation of baking power from currently a half to a third of their nominal value in tez.

This change (and similar variations) has been advocated in this thread as an incentive for delegators to become stakers, but also as a nudge for (public) bakers to embrace staking and attract external stakers more aggressively.

However, the change would impact all bakers by reducing their baking power and consequently their consensus rights – as pointed out, for example by @BakeTzForMe. Indeed the change in the baking power formula would reduce the maximal baking power that 1 tez of a baker’s own stake can attract from stakers and delegators before over-staking and over-delegation come into play from 10.5 to 9.

As a result, we have decided to include this change in a separate proposal, to allow bakers to ultimately decide if this change is supported by a supermajority of bakers.

Note that this change doesn’t require a reduction of the minimum stake requirements to ensure all currently active bakers retain baking rights, as almost all of them have staked at least 6,000 tez of their own funds – that is, with their main baking key.

Other remarks

To close up, we provide a few remarks on other topics raised in the thread so far:

On increasing the limit_of_staking_over_baking

@cryptEMES and other participants suggested allowing bakers to increase their limit_of_staking_over_baking parameter beyond the global limit of 5 – that is, to allow external stakes beyond 5 times the baker’s stake. The rationale is to allow bakers who have already adopted the new mechanism to capture more external stake.

This rather simple change would have deep implications for network security and decentralization:

  • The global limit of staking over baking is intertwined with slashing penalties, and both mechanisms need to be adjusted together so that a baker cannot exploit the slashing mechanism at the expense of their own stakers. This could happen, for instance, if a baker deliberately double-signs a block to immediately denounce themselves, potentially making a profit from the unshared denunciation reward as the slashing penalties are shared proportionally with their stakers. The current values for the global staking over baking limit and the constants governing double-signing penalties guarantee that such attacks are never profitable.

  • Allowing for higher ratios risks effectively damaging network decentralization, as it can lead to concentrating a significant share of the global stake on the operations of a few large bakers.

Thus, we have decided to explore an adjustment of this change for future proposals, allowing for sufficient time for researching and thoroughly testing the implications of this change.

Marketing, communication and education around the new Staking mechanism

@KevinMehrabi (and other community members) have suggested focusing on marketing, communication and documentation to increase the adoption of the new Staking mechanism, rather than on pure technical answers to increase the staked ratio.

While we agree that educating and raising awareness about the new Staking mechanism is crucial – and we indeed initiated several communication, marketing, and documentation efforts in this regard – , we believe these initiatives should complement, not replace, the continuous evolution of the Tezos protocol.

We want to thank all community members who have actively contributed to these efforts across social media, Discord, Telegram and other similar channels.

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You may be right that outreach efforts are needed, but that has no bearing on the issuance curve. There can be changes to the issuance curve without outreach efforts, there can be changes to the issuance curve with outreach efforts, there can be no changes to the issuance curve and no outreach efforts, and there can be no changes to the issuance curve with outreach efforts. There is no interdependency between changing the issuance curve and reaching out to the community to inform them about staking. You need to look at the two things in isolation. Outreach efforts are needed, and issuance needs to urgently decrease. Both things are needed, and implementing the one does not jeopardise the other.

To Everstake and other big stakers who might oppose these changes: I would only ask you to think of the long-term health of Tezos. You may lose some income in the short term, but Tezos’s long-term viability depends on it attracting monetary premium. If issuance of Tezos increases, of all things, it will die. Literally.

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